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Materials economy in Golden Battles and aliens loot
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Aran

I come in peace

Joined: 20/05/2013 23:36:19
Messages: 89
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We need some discussion about alien drops. Old system was very bad because there was so much materials that their price started falling and become close to worthless.
But new system is far from perfect, it needs some serious tweaking.



I. What is good in new system:

1. Every alien drop only 1 type of material.
That means when there is shortage of given material players can hunt for it and dont receive something else as leftover - devaluating its price.

2. Companies can now harvest resources.
Well partially true, as more expensive materials with low demand (ie phosphorus or hydrogen) can be obtained cheaper from drops (but thats because of point 1 "Whats bad").

3. Players can easly sell looted materials for better price.
Maybe not yet, but soon when players stocked materials will be emptied.



II. What is bad in new system:

1. Drop chance equal for all materials.
Thats biggest issue. Cheap materials and expensive ones drop in same amounts. Only amount of aliens is different.
It basically means hunting for low-end materials like iron, wood, grain, meat and oil is not profitable as long as there any expensive material aliens available. And it doesnt matter if ie there is no iron on market. Companies will not pay for it more than game price. Players will prefer to hunt for ie latex as some day it will sell anyway and they will get more for it than for iron.
Also please remember materials coming from hunt are not free, even if game shows AQ price as 0.00. Cost of obtaining material from aliens depends on amount of shots spent (aliens killed) to receive 1 unit of material, price of weapons + prestige items in country and country fight bonus.
If drop chance is equal for all materials it means cost of obtaining every material is same. And most lucrative alien to hunt for is one which drops most expensive material (and is still alive). That means iron or oil will be last on list to hunt for, even if demand for them is huge and none is available on market (except game).
How to fix? Connect drop chance to workhours needed to harvest material. Ie latex harvest time is 0.8 h and iron is 0.12 h - iron drop chance should be increased 8x. And same with every other material.


2. Hunting harder aliens is not rewarded, drop chance on higher level aliens is way too low.
Level 1 aliens having best drops is bad. It basically mean new players will have nothing to fight with, as level 1 aliens will be instantly killed after respawn. And higher level aliens are too hard for them.
Vulnerabilities on aliens with no drops doesnt really create any demand for bigger guns - 1x 2.4% drop chance is almost same as "This alien drops nothing".
Also higher level aliens need players to invest in prestige to have a chance to 1-shot alien. That should be rewarded too - creating demand for items creates jobs and runs economy. Ie level 7 alien cannot be killed in 1 shot without house. Level 6 alien cannot be killed in 1 shot without golf ticket or house.

How to fix? Basically more money needed to kill alien should mean better drops. Since aliens level 1-4 can be hunted by anyone and doesnt require any investment, just gived more xp drop chances should very lightly drop each level, but with significantly more aliens every level.
At level 1 drop chance would be "base" and then every higher alien level it would fall by ie 15%. Level 4 aliens would have half of drop chance level 1 has.
At level 5 it would be change - drop chance would go up and match level 1 aliens (the base one). Amount of aliens would be highest here. Those would be aliens for more experienced players that doesnt want to do any extra investments or just want to burn leftover stamina.
At level 6 drop chance is increased, but amount of aliens would be slightly lowered.
At level 7 - highest drop chance and least aliens. This ones require very high level (12+) and can be 1-shoted only with high prestige (min 80 I think, and only at max stamina - so having house is must here).
At level 8 there would be rifle required (additional investment with higher cost per shot) - drop chance matches level 6 aliens, alien count is slightly higher than lev 6 ones.
At level 9 shotgun required (much more expensive per shot) - drop chance and aliens count half way between level 8 and level 10 aliens.
At level 10 sniper - highest drop chance, matching level 7 aliens, a bit higher amount than level 7 ones. Those doesnt require 100 prestige to kill, but need specialized weapon or trained PP.

This system is actually very similiar to current one, but here there is no 'BEST' alien to hunt for (and its not level 1). Depending on how much player wants to invest he chooses different 'best' alien to hunt for him. Once this is killed he can switch to a bit less profitable material, or switch alien level (sacrificing drop chance a bit).
Level 4 aliens would be propably the last ones on field, as they have lowest drop chance. Level 9's and 10's propably would stay as well, as snipers are just too expensive to use.


3. Drop chance depends on player level and there is limit on amount of aliens.
This leads to problem that even if amount of aliens is planned right countries with lots of H grade players will effectively greatly lower amount of materials dropped in country.
How to fix? Two possibilities:
- make drop chance fixed (not dependant on player level) - but then H grade players would be able to hunt them as effective as I grade players, just without xp gain. I remember Admin said material gathering is role for I grade and doesnt want that, so this option propably is not acceptable.
- make limit on materials dropped instead of limited aliens number. Aliens would be available as long as material pool for drops is not emptied. In economy->cities add extra numbers showing of available materials left coming from aliens (similiar to number of resources in pool for companies). Those numbers would be different for every level, some level-filter or just multiple columns could be added to make view simple looking.


4. "Golden rush" on first day of month.
Materials are spawning on one day instead of constantly. That makes player who are first to login after replenish of resources earns a lot. After there are no resources at end of month we have 'nothing to do' syndrome.
How to fix? I think game would work much better of every day some small amount of resources (1/30) would be added to pool of resources in each city. There would be cap on pool of about 100 days of resources, each day 1% of max amount would be added. Max amount would depend like now on amount of active players.
Time of replenish should be random - once its midnight, other time it is afternoon, giving players from all time zones equal chances.
Same should be done with limits of materials gained from aliens and respawn of aliens (amount added each day until limit is reached).



III. Calculations of current material demand and comparision with current situation

Monthly demand per player:

Iron: 400
- 5*40 weapons
- 200/2 house
- 200*0.25 machine amortization in 25% (calculated usage on materials harvest and processing and finished items)
- around 50 other items like car, armor, equipment

Wood: 120
- 200/2 : house
- 18 : machine amortization in 25%
- 2 : paper and other items

Grain, meat - used only by leaders and mentors to max up prestige, rarely by others for work bonus; maybe later more of it will be needed for war drinks and food.
60 drinks = 2.4 grain
60 food = 6 meat

Skin: 10
0.8 clothes set
15/2? house
2 car and other items like armor

Cotton: 11
4.8 clothes set
10/2 house
1 other items like armor

Latex: 15
5*2 weapons
5/2 house
2 car and other items

Phosphorus and hydrogen is almost not used now, as energy weapons are too costly per shot, creating close to no demand for those.


Current alien drop rates - same for all materials (materials gathered on average after 10 fights):
Level 1 : 1-10 x 3% (3 units)
Level 2 : 1-15 x 1.2% (1.8 units)
Level 3 : 1-10 x 1.2% (1.2 units)
Level 4 : 1-15 x 0.6% (0.9 units)
Level 5 : 1-10 x 0.7% (0.7 units)
Level 6 : 1-2 x 3.5% (0.7 units)
Level 7 : 1-1 x 4.9% (0.49 units)
Well after that its worse and worse, so its pointless to continue hunting even for most expensive materials, especially that level 8-10 require more expensive weapons to use (and with higher cost per shot). Unless of course someone wants to do it for xp, without care about drops.

To satisfy demand for 400 iron player needs to kill 1334 aliens of level 1, but only 40 in capital (and 400 in outer city) is available for whole country with 100 players. That means only 12 iron can be looted from level 1 aliens in capital and 120 iron from outer city.
Now level 2 aliens - around 60 available in capital and 600 in outer city. That will give another 120 iron.
Level 3 aliens - 90 in capital and 900 in other city. And another 120 iron.

To satisfy player's own demand for iron during 1 month he needs to kill around 2000 aliens. With 40 fights per day on average it will take him around 50 days (oops!).
Yeah and that is just 1 player, other 99 would need to not fight or fight aliens of other material type.
Something is clearly not working here...


IV. Example drop rates after implementing points II. 1-4 solutions:

Multipliers on drop rates (based on harvest workhours and relative to iron):
oil: 1.2
iron: 1
wood: 0.705882
grain: 0.75
meat: 0.4
skin: 0.2
cotton: 0.171428
latex: 0.15
hydrogen: 0.3
phosphorus: 0.24


Iron alien drop rates (iron gathered on average after 10 fights):
Level 1, 5 : 1-10 x 5% (5 iron)
Level 6, 8 : 1-15 x 5% (7.5 iron)
Level 9 : 1-22 x 5% (11 iron)
Level 7, 10: 1-30 x 5% (15 iron)
Level 2 : 1-8 x 5% (4 iron)
Level 3 : 1-6 x 5% (3 iron)
Level 4 : 1-5 x 5% (2.5 iron)

Reminding that 1 active player burns 400 iron monthly (house and weapons). To satisfy his own demand he need to kill 800 aliens, and that would be iron only. With 40 fights daily it would take 20 days. Or just around 1 week if level 7 one is chosen. And there are also other materials needed...
Without any alien limit those drop rates would require companies to harvest city materials.
But considering Admin wants encourage players to travel amount of aliens could be limited. On every level there should be enough to cover around 10% of total demand (thats 40 iron for every player in country). In case of extra demand players can kill less profitable ones (from levels 2,3 and 4).
It would be 80 aliens FOR EVERY ACTIVE player - of course splitted between capital and outer city. I think 10-90 is a bit harsh split between capital and other city - I suggest 20-80 split.
Ie for country with 100 players (active) it would be 8000 aliens level 1 (preferrably 266 respawning daily) and 8000 aliens level 5 (266 daily) in capital and 32000 in outer city (1068 spawning daily) on both levels.
With materials pool it would be easier - there would be separate pool for each alien level and city. In capital each level would have 4000 iron (133 daily) inside pool and outside cities 16000 iron (533 daily). Each day on random hour pool would be increased by daily amount, unless it would exceed 100x daily limit (13300 in capital for 100 active players country).
I think admin have already developed formula to count number of active players. Player that is working only and not buying anything shouldnt really be counted same as player with 100 prestige who fights a lot, as the working-only one generates no demand for materials.


Lets take a look at latex:

Latex alien drop rates (latex gathered on average after 10 fights):
Level 1, 5 : 1-10 x 0.75% (0.75 latex)
Level 6, 8 : 1-15 x 0.75% (1.125 latex)
Level 9 : 1-22 x 0.75% (1.65 latex)
Level 7, 10: 1-30 x 0.75% (2.25 latex)
Level 2 : 1-8 x 0.75% (0.6 latex)
Level 3 : 1-6 x 0.75% (0.45 latex)
Level 4 : 1-5 x 0.75% (0.375 latex)

It seems a bit easier to be self-sufficient with latex, as 1 player creates demand for only 15 latex. So killing only 200 aliens would be enough. With 40 fights daily it would take 5 days (or 2 days if hunting for level 7).



Conclusion:
Drop chances I gave give players fair chance to earn something without flooding market.
For oil or iron they are very high (although lower than iron with old system, when aggressive aliens were farmed) - 1 iron guaranteed every 2nd fight or every fight with "harder" aliens.
For latex they are actually a bit lower than current values (now most lucrative level 1 aliens drop like 3 latex on every 10 fights) - but this material is not needed in so large amounts, and is expensive enough and finding 2 of it in 10 fights can give high enough income.
When we add other materials (although less needed for now) and count hours needed to spent for hunting keymaterials it will be not possible that 1 player can gather all materials for himself. That means companies will be essential to gather resources. But materials gatherable by players will be very needed as well - as resources spawned for companies are limited.


What do you think? Maybe some other ideas?
Of course final word always belong to Admin, but I hope current aliens will have a very needed tweaking.


-----
edit: fixed some typos

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 03/10/2013 19:40:41

Masterbo

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Joined: 25/02/2013 20:06:44
Messages: 152
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Hello Aran,
i start with the discuss. I think the drop rate must a little higher but not at your example.
I think u should not produce all things with all drops from Aliens. I think u must calculated half/half. half from materials-companies and half from drop Aliens.

But I think it must give another way.

1. I think low Level Player (Player from 1-10) schould have a bigger chance to get materials with fighting vs non aggresive Aliens. I think new Player need that Materials to increase your Level and H Grade. But the droprate should not be the same from the old system. I think the half is enough.

2. For the other player give the normal Aliens with a low droprate like now.

3. It give now Aggressive Aliens with a high droprate, but the people must have 1-2 pieces of armor and need Special Weapons and must use EP to fight with them. But the dropchance must be high enough, because armor and EP is expensive.

4. For all player give something like Practise Fight. Player can earn with training more search points. For succesfull training get the player 0.001% more droprate. But the maximum value is dependent on the level. So you can, for example, when Level 1 is to increase its drop rate up to 0.05% to 0.1% at level 2 and so on. When you reach a new H grade, then increases the maximum number of material from accessible. So you can then get 1 more.

5. It give in Events new Special Items for a higher droprate for 2 or 3 days or player can buy these from gamefund. But Events is better.

I think that a combination of my ideas and Arans could make the game even better.

Thx Aran for writing this Post and thx for the Admin, that we can discuss Changes from Game. That is it, why the game is the best in ther world wide web.
Aran

I come in peace

Joined: 20/05/2013 23:36:19
Messages: 89
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@Masterbo

Ad 1. Great we agree drop chances needs to be increased than now Actually in my proposal I suggested to increase drop chance by less than half from old system.
Before for ie iron drop chance was 1-30 x 15% (45 iron every 10 fights) - for aggressive alien, and those were mostly farmed. For passive it was 3x less, resulting in 15 iron every 10 fights.
My proposal is:
20% iron would come from aliens with drop chance 1-30 x 5% (15 iron) - split in very expensive to kill level 10 alien (requiring sniper weapon), I dont think this one will be farmed, unless emergency situations. Other alien - level 7 - will be very attractive, but player to have a chance at killing him will need golf ticket and house, creating demand for products.
20% coming with 1-15 x 5% (7.5 iron) - half of old passive drop chance - put in quite easy level 6 (require golf ticket to kill) and level 8 (require rifle)
10% coming with 1-22 x 5% (11 iron) - costly to kill level 9 - require shotgun, propably will never be touched unless material is very needed
20% coming with 1-10 x 5% (5 iron) - very easy and available to all players
other 30% would have even lower drop chance - also would be used only in emergency situations.

Average drop rate would be way lower than 2x old system and it would leave room for companies to gather materials, as killing completly 1 type of alien would make supply of materials high enough without need of company harvesting, BUT people will need to kill lots of iron aliens with very poor drops (level 2,3,4), or very costly ones (level 9 and 10).

In UK we have around 100 players logging at least once every day and around 14 very active ones that fight a lot and keep high prestige (creating high demand for products).
14 players x 400 iron = 5600 iron is needed monthly. Companies can harvest only 2x 758 = 1516. Other 4000 iron needs to come from drops. In case of emergency it should be possible to gather more than 4000 iron, but it should come from poor drop chance aliens (in my proposal that would be level 2,3,4 and somewhat 8,9,10 - high chance, but require to spend more to kill them).
Thats why I suggested it should be possible to gather 8000 iron monthly total, 800 for every level. Aliens from levels 1,5,6,7 will be propably all killed. Other levels have much weaker drop chance and people will hunt for them in emergency, in case iron multiplied by drop chance has higher price on market (is needed more) than other materials.

I really tried to balance numbers in my first post, so companies still HAVE TO harvest resources, but player hunters are still needed. Extra amount of materials possible to loot is really needed, as sometimes some different productions are ongoing with can result in huge shortage of some materials. It should be hunters job to provide them, although with higher price than companies can harvest. Lower chances (level 2,3,4) or requirement to use expensive weapons (level 9,10) makes cost to obtain those extra materials much higher, with will result in much higher price.

Ad 2. Player level is already used in formula - with higher player level drop chance is less and less. Ie level 30 player from level 1 alien has like 3x lower drop chance than level 1 player.
Thats why I proposed to switch limited alien count to limited material pool that can drop from each alien in given city. Once that pool is depleted connected alien with it is gone.

Ad 3. Creating aggressive version of aliens would mean another 100 aliens. In old version aggressive aliens messed a lot, so its a bit risky. On other side creating demand for armor would be nice. But current armors protect so little it has no chance of success - full armor gives only 125 hp reduction, making it no difference fighting with or without armor - people would fight with them without armor, greatly increasing supply of materials, without creating extra demand.

Ad 4. You mean new skill "looting"? Sounds quite nice Player investing in himself, spending stamina to improve it to use it later on battlefield.

Ad 5. Special item "Double loot" seems really nice for arena reward And it can be easly balanced if "limited material pool per alien" is used. Player will earn double loot, but in country there would be still same amount of materials dropped. I really like it.
Same is for previous point with new skill improving loot chance - no effect on total amount materials dropped in country.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 03/10/2013 21:50:26

Admin

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Joined: 13/06/2012 14:40:39
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@Aran: your calculations are basically incorrect, because you take your own drop rates into consideration, not the one of same-level players.
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Aran

I come in peace

Joined: 20/05/2013 23:36:19
Messages: 89
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I know Admin. But player with level 1 will basically fight only level 1 aliens, and those wont survive long enough to make it any difference. And for level 15 player I suppose drops will be even lower, and this group are main hunters group. Low level players will sooner or later advance, making level 15 group stronger and stronger.

I made an example calculations to check how many aliens would take level 14-15 player to gather enough materials just for himself. It was 50 days only for 1 material (iron). I know it is impossible too, because as you noticed level 3 aliens didnt survive 3rd day as well, even tho iron is almost last material in price.

But what do you think about my proposal?
1. Material drop chance directly connected with harvest time to counter problem #1.
2. Different "best" aliens to hunt for different player groups - level 1 for new players, level 5 for regular ones, level 6 for those who buy tickets, level 7 for those with house, level 8-10 for those who want more xp and decided to invest in more weapon types. #2
3. Creating limited pool of materials for every alien (separate for each level) instead of having limited amount of aliens. This option balance countries material supply and also gives lot of options later on, ie Masterbo suggested "double loot" special item. #3
4. "Golden rush" problem. I really hated it in other games - salaries skyrocket to huge sums, peoples rushing for limited amount of aliens on first days of month. And later days in month are very boring. Wars are mainly taking place at last day of month to battle for resources, as later cities are empty anyway and nothing to fight for.
Resources and aliens being added (not reseted) every day seems nice solution to that. And with different refill time players from every time zone have a chance to be first. Ie monday its 06:00, tuesday 12:00, wed 18:00, thur 00:00, fri: 06:00, ... next monday 00:00 etc.

In proposed drop rates base drop chance is 5%. Then it is multiplied by harvest time modifier and after that level modifier (different for each player). I remember you said you want it that way - so H grade players have very hard time gathering materials, as they will have different role in GB.
As long as every grade is needed I think it will be fine. I just dont have idea what could ie H grade specialize in later on. Those are easy tho: I grade = materials, A grade for leaders and mentors.
Without roles for other grades I think fixed drop chance would work better then.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 03/10/2013 23:40:26

Gebik

Newbie

Joined: 11/04/2013 09:56:32
Messages: 39
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I really agree that has to be change in new system.

I like few Arans ideas a lot and I see Masterboo points are also very helpfull.

Just dont ignore Arans opinion, because he is critical all the time. I really think he and masterboo are right this time.
Aran

I come in peace

Joined: 20/05/2013 23:36:19
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I think its time to go back with this discussion. H grade guardian changes are really great, but still I see only 16 people who changed grade and only few more are considering change.
Alien drop rates are very very low, even double chance doesnt pay off cost of traveling. To reach iron city in UK player needs to spend 0.1 euro (1-way ticket). To return investment player needs to gather around 150 iron (including equivalent in gold paid to guardian). That means around 300 aliens needs to be killed.
Of course latex or cotton are very profitable to hunt for now, but they are in very limited amounts, enough only for few days. For new player who dont have money for traveling its not an option.
Iron is in highest demand and is one of worst material to hunt for, thats really bad.
Admin

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Joined: 13/06/2012 14:40:39
Messages: 288
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Aran wrote:For new player who dont have money for traveling its not an option.


New players receive 10 teleport special items at registration.
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Gebik

Newbie

Joined: 11/04/2013 09:56:32
Messages: 39
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In this case, I really agree with Aran.
System should be changed, try to stay new advantages, but remove the disadvantages.
 
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